I cannot imagine Paul competing in the gymnasium, even if he was Hellenized. Well, I did take a few music classes there part-time for two or three semesters, and one time, Marco Barrientos was a substitute teacher in one of my classes for maybe 45 minutes. We need to get to work applying that paint to the garage and house as quick as we can. Paul might indeed have been a follower of the School of Shammai, but his mentioning Gamaliels name might have been intended to his (Pauls) having studies in Jerusalem when Gamaliel was head of the Sanhedrin. You can hover over the pic and it will say that (or at least it did for me in Firefox). But the testimonies of the era indicate he would have become a ward and trainee of Gamaliel in the age range of 10-14. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. It is also possible that Paul adopted many of Gamaliels teachings but, due to his youthful age, he decided to be more proactive. The Holy Trinity isnt Jesus, Paul, and Chuck. You seem to parrot some of his words in your replies. I find this convincing since Paul seems, at least in part, to return to Gamaliels tutelage after his conversion. Yeshua quotes many of them and in many cases agreed or corrected their rulings. Evangelism is part of the Second Commandment given by Jesus, to Love people. Why do so many people frequently attack and tear down and dismiss the Original Apostles, particularly Peter, as if they were all incompetent, stupid, and wrong in so many ways, and they didnt even know what an Apostle was? He says he is "of the tribe of Benjamin.". "Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Its no stretch to say Gamaliel was a Hillelite and Saul was a Shammaite. A generation before Christ there were two great rabbis, Hillel and Shammai. My view is very similar to the traditional Orthodox view of the texts of Scripture for almost 2000 years. Jesus did not see even the Hebrew Scriptures, what we call the Old Testament, as a whole unit or book that was all equal or all truly Gods words. Jesus spoke of The Law, or The Law and the Prophets, holding these 2 sections of the Old Testament above the third, least important sections the Writings. And Jesus held the Psalms, the first book of the Writings section, above the other books in the Writings section in importance, since some parts of some Psalms are prophetic. How long did the Apostle Paul prepare for ministry? Match. 5:7) Paul takes a Nazarite vow, validate his claim that he doesnt teach against Torah and upholds it. Your comments are ridiculous and borderline stupidity. This is more accurate, important, and authoritative than personal letters written by Paul the Pharisee, who never knew Jesus personally, had no part in His ministry, and had no eyewitness testimony. Yes, this subject can get indepth, but I think it is better myself to keep it simple, and what we can know, from Scripture itself. However, there are other times when Paul puts his Christian beliefs and what Jesus has to say before the Pharisaical rules and is willing to break a rule or be mocked for something and instead, do something Jesus way. Even though Gamaliel was the one who stated in Acts 5:34-39 that if this Jesus movement were from God there would be no way to stop it, they should just let it run its course, Paul was still influenced heavily by the persecution mindset that the rest of the Sanhedrin had. There are three things bearing on this subject among the incidental intimations which we have in respect to the early history of Saul, viz. Hillel, like Moses, died at the age of 120 and for the last 40 years of his life (c.30 BC-10 AD) he led the Sanhedrin, the ruling elders who determined on political and religious cases in Jerusalem. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. Helpful. Yet Mohammed (saw) reiterated the message as Gods Messenger and like the Pharisees rejected him because their forefathers corrupted the original message. Gamaliel was the grandson of Hillel, the most renowned rabbi in Jewish history. God led Paul to write what what was necessary to be included in scripture, but at the same time God does not use men as mindless puppets, but he uses our personalities, ideas, and who we are to accomplish what he wants. Which is why he had to go to Sinai (which is in current day Saudi Arabia). Then when the paint is dry, Ill move back into the house, and you can paint the garage., The painting contractor hired a new foreman named Paul, and gave him the homeowners instructions. To Paul, Christianity was dangerous, and to his Jewish thinking, very wrong. As for burying Stephen, even if Gamaliel was not a Christian he would have been motivated to care for the dead, as demonstrated in Tobit. But after Paul went solo without Barnabas [Acts 15] I see no record that Paul ever appointed any elders in any church anywhere. So no there was zero Christianity in the book of Acts. Its called Islam and it is True Religion and the fastest growing religion on earth because people are realizing that Christianity is built on a foundation of lies and the religion of the Nazarenes and Ebionites is preserved in Islam. He states not only is he a Pharisee, but where he studied and what tribe he is from. Not to mention I highly doubt you have a Phd in any area of academia or even known any grasp of Hebrew or Greek. [Acts 20:31 vs Acts 19:8-10], .4) Paul abandoning the Church in Corinth after a year and a half for no obvious reason, and going off on another long trip, mostly on his own, without appointing anyone else in Corinth as overseer, or giving anyone else any specific authority in the Church in Corinth. I think that we should use Pauls training from Gamaliel as a background to understanding his theology because most of his theology is based off of his human teacher and was added on by the Holy Spirit. As is his conventional style, NT Wright is overly presuppositionsal in so much of his theology generally that I cannot personally ascribe to him much status as a scholarly commentator . The blog started as a supplement to teaching through Acts at my church, then later college classes. Tha A in TanAch. In Philippians Paul describes himself as a Diaspora Jew who claimed to have been raised in a family which kept the Jewish traditions faultlessly. Reliability is certainly an issue. I agree that the teaching of Gamaliel did influence his life and was the foundation of his ministry because he is a Talmudim from that school. People tend to forget that Yeshua himself stated that we are to listen to the Pharisees for they sit in the seat of Moses. Rabbinical eras Chazal Zugot Tannaim Amoraim Savoraim Geonim Rishonim Acharonim v t e In the Christian tradition, Gamaliel is recognized as a Pharisee doctor Paul's impact on Christianity is enormous and cannot be overstated. I am not at all removing Paul (or Jesus) from the culture of the Second Temple period, but I certainly more aware of what was happening in the first century that you appear to be. You need to read more than later recollections of what Hillell and Shammai said (ie.,, Mishnah and Talmud, both much later than the New Testament and there is a great discussion in scholarship over how much of that material reflects the real world of the first century). According to Photius, he was baptized by Saint Peter and Saint John, together with his son and Nicodemus. Like a little squirrel dressed up As a flying superhero We give ourselves the Title And zoom around the atmosphere Oh! No mention of a cloudy past No hint of condemnation. Go and sin no more said Jesus, Dont relive that history. therefore I urge you to imitate me, and I have become all things to all men. Paul thinks hes Boss, and doesnt need to listen to your instructions that I gave him.. If Christianity means people who follow Jesus as messiah and savior then there is Christianity, beginning with Jewish followers of Jesus and moving out to the Gentiles through the Pauline mission. If I did something it MUST be right Dont use the Scripture to shed any light Dont do as I say, do as I do and then you can be a Pharisee too. Pauls relationship with Gamaliel two years ago, Paul and Gamaliel | ChristianBookBarn.com, The Book of Enoch for Beginners: A Guide to Expand Your Understanding of the Biblical World. The Apostle Peter made reference to Prophecy of Scripture, not All Scripture, and no its not the same thing at all. a. This isnt the fullest description of him, but its full enough. Moreover, Paul preached that gentiles ingrafted into the olive tree were part of Israel is a teaching DIRECTLY from Hillel. Paul wrote: The entire law is summed up in a SINGLE command: Love your neighbor as yourself. [Galatians 5:14, Leviticus 19:18], And again, Paul wrote: He who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. Which one is it? No, im based in Missouri. If we need a man or a group of men to interpret the Word for us, that would make it a revelation that needs to be revealed. Since the entire ministry framework both Yeshua and Paul are 100% Jewish, meaning adherence oral and written law, you are to view it from that lense. One could envisage that the power of God was already hard wired in the heart some people through faith in his words and by grace in his blood just as Gamaliel proclaimed, A homeowner called his friend, who was a painting contractor. This gets Paul in trouble and that section of Acts is basically a dissertation by Paul stating he never taught against the law but adheres to it. 1:3 ; 1:11-12, etc.). Social Science. They believe after reading his writings the law is done away with, you can eat what you want and he was anti Judaism. gamaliel was the greatest of the teachers of the pharisees, perhaps of all time, because he was said to have known the law at a doctorate level, so it was with great wisdom that he told the. Because we must establish a matter by the testimony of two or three witnesses, especially something as important as What is the Word of God. No one else in the pages of the Bible besides Paul ever said anything like All Scripture is God-breathed. It was very interesting to me that it was likely that Paul was raised in a very Jewish home, trained in all the Jewish ways and teachings, and a student of Gamalieland yet he did react to Christianity in such a violent and zealous form. Why do you want Paul to act like a Pope in Corinth, someone who oversees all aspects of the church? To what extent should we use Pauls training at the feet of Gamaliel as background to understanding his later theology? Acts of the Apostles, 5 speaks of Gamaliel as a man held in great esteem by all Jews and as the Jewish law teacher of Paul the Apostle in Acts 22:3. . According to Josephus (Life 38.190-191), Gamaliel belonged to "a highly respected family"; there is no good reason to reject the early Jewish tradition that he was the grandson (or perhaps . Pastor Niko Thapa. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. He may have had Greek rhetoric and oration skills, but not at the top level (or at least he says he is not much of a speaker). Why believe a self-described co-redeemer holy spirit comforter who claimed; I became your father, therefore I urge you to imitate me? get up set if you want ,,but Paul was that , dont believe it ? But that was the requirement Jesus gave to sit on thrones: You are those who have stood by me in my trials. You, speaking to His 11 Apostles who had been walking with Him faithfully for 3 years. I say that Paul became more like a Hillelite and was largely impacted by Gamaliels theology because there are a few instances noted in the Bible where Pauls beliefs line up very closely with Gamaliels. He studied under Gamaliel. My question is, is it too outrageous to see Pauls tendency (pre-conversion and post-conversion) as one that is either starting up a new hybrid of Jewish thought or a member of one of the smaller groups already formed? Although there are many remarkably similarities between Paul and HIllel, there are serious differences between what might be considered the mainstream of Judaism which survived A.D. 70 (Hillel for the most part) and Pauline Christianity. Jesus is in agreement with the Law and the Prophets and came to fulfill them. [Matthew 5:17-20]. Besides Jesus, all the characters in the Bible had frailties- like Jonah and Paul. Hillel disagreed on this aspect, due to many converts in the Torah ( Ruth, Obidiah, Abraham etc.) This article is the result of when you remove the culture/context of the scriptures, the Hebraics of the Brist Chadasha (Renewed Testament) and injecting the christian outlook that Shaul (Paul) divorced his Jewish roots. Instead, it puts their focus on their one special man above all others his personality, words and teachings, character, life example, feelings, experience, intentions, mind, will, emotions, etc. In fact, it almost sounds as if he is name-dropping in order to impress people!. That is why there was no mention of Believe and be saved The New Covenant was not even inaugurated until the Last Passover Supper and the 2 Commandments are clearly described in 1st John. when did congress pass the noahide laws; what is monzo building society account? Long has taught full time at Grace Christian University since 1998, specializing in Bible and Biblical languages. If one lies and is decieved that it somehow abounds to Gods glory, that lying isnt a sin ESPECIALLY where God is concerned, what WONT they lie about? The followers of Yeshua and Shaul were not called Christians. As a Roman citizen, Paul possessed a coveted status I also imagine Yoda being Gamaliel and Luke Skywalker being Paul. The job is to paint the garage and house what difference does it make which one is first? You are extremely insulting to me when you ignore what was written and only hear what your own prejudice allows. You can read Peters advice for yourself- then open your Bible to Matthew, John, Revelation, and Mark, and listen to Jesus for yourself! Meaning people who believed in the Moshiach as Yeshua. One of them responded to me QUOTE: In short you believe Paul is the Anti Christ.. Not a new theory Mostly just misunderstanding Pauls writings..He never preached to abolish The Torah thats a misunderstanding https://unashamedofjesus.org/2016/05/31/greatest-commandment/#comment-5642, The other one responded to me QUOTE: When you referred to Jesus words about the greatest commandment, you neglected to mention the context. I could just say Jesus is our model. But never discuss the Scriptures that show why Paul is NOT our model. Here are 5 to get the discussion started: .1) Pauls boastful conflicting false testimonies, exaggerating and making things up about his conversion experience in Acts 22 & 26, compared to what actually happened (recorded by Luke in Acts 9). As an athlete and sports enthusiast, the references really stuck out to me and are passages of scripture that I have read multiple times. Im sorry that Christians cant come to grips in their confirmation bias that both Yeshua and Pauls ministries was infact Judaism. Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. And what kind of a stone is the most solid, permanent, and unchangeable? I agree with you. Lets not waste our time with endless debates about what Paul really meant with his wacky teachings about baptizing the dead or there is neither male nor female. Paul was wrong. Jesus spoke the words recorded in Matthew 28:18-20, including make disciples of all nations. Jesus never used the term Great Commission, its simply a tradition of men. Therefore, he must have planted these groups himself. No, I DONT want Paul to act like a Pope controlling all aspects of the church from a distance yet reading Pauls 2 letters to the church, it is clear to me this is exactly what he was doing. To which Paul replied, youre fired. Paul then took his team of painters, and started painting the garage and the house. You are so far from understanding anything I have ever said it is humorous, actual insulting. Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. we only see him make use of those things POST conversion, this is true enough, but we do not really have a very large database of material to assess Pauls Hellenistic worldview prior to his conversion. in a meticulous, more comprehensive way. Definition of tentmaker 1 : one that makes tents. If the Hillel tradition did not offer plasticity enough to justify Pauls missions against Christians, is it possible that Paul felt that he stayed basically faithful to Gamaliel/Hillels school and to mercy because the predominant number (majority of cases) of Pauls concrete cases against Christians did not require threats of death (i.e., how many Christians caved in?). The people who will protest most loudly against this truth are the modern Pauls: traveling evangelists, speakers, writers, abusive absentee mega-church pastors, Crusaders, and self-appointed apostles like Paul, who find it profitable to be like Paul rather than follow Jesus the Jewish Messiah. section 8 rentals in oak grove ms The sect were known as Nazarites or Netzrim and in later writings Messianics. You cite NT Wright as describing the Shammaite Pharisee as a militant hard-liner that was not willing to work with Rome as long as they could study the Torah. I do not, however, see this as the case in the rest of the book of Acts, where Paul works the Roman system in his favor. Christian Pharisees were not unknown, even if we cannot know for sure if the wishful thinking of the traditions is true about Gamaliel and Nicodemus. Here, Paul explicitly wrote that he was in these regions. Paul had decided to preach to gentiles apparently out of his own revelatory experience that this was the mission that had been given him by God when God called him to function as a prophet for this new Jesus movement. Responding to a question from Peter, Jesus said to them: you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [Matthew 19:28]. The leaders of the various house churches, Apollos by name, perhaps Chloes household is another church. And most of all, he wouldnt of been able to defend the Gospel in such a way as if he did not have the correct teaching. ), Paul is a Hillel talmudim through and though. Im sorry that Christians cant come to grips in their confirmation bias that both Yeshua and Pauls ministries was infact Judaism.. My absolute favorite missionary story in the Bible is the account of Paul . I will leave that to the Ruah, my rabbi and the Yeshiva (that ive been attending for years) I attend. In this case, that assumption would clearly be wrong. Perhaps a foundation stone? Well considering I am infact Jewish I dont need your advice on what I should read.. It is said that in the 5th century, by a miracle, his body had been discovered and taken to Pisa Cathedral. Do you have a Biblical basis for your response? because he said so. Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits. [Mark 6:6-7], .2) Gospel of Luke time lag between being appointed and being sent One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. If the mere thought of questioning Pauline Doctrine or Pauls truthfulness ruffles your feathers, its a sign that Pauls rotten spiritual fruit has taken root in your life. Im horrified that youre taking Jewish writings and making crazy stories out of them. [Acts 18}, .5) Paul acting as an abusive absentee overseer / pastor to the Church in Corinth years after he abandoned them, and clinging to all power and claim to control of money and all aspects of the church ministry, while he was hundreds of miles away teaching full-time in his own school in Ephesus. Do you have a reference handy mentioning Gamaliel in the Clementine lit? On example: I think that it is likely he on his way to being a master of Greco-Roman rhetoric prior to conversion. Both Yeshua and Pauls ministries are simply another sect of Judaism. Like Brad Young, he is deeply influenced by David Flusser but unlike Flusser and Young, he is less in touch with mainstream Jewish scholarship. It is the drastic nature of the difference in his life after he surrenders to Jesus that testifies to the Power and Truth of who Christ is, as well as to the wonder of the great mystery that is later revealed to Paul! I meant to say for rejecting Mohammed (p) and worshipping a man who said worship God alone, Jesus (p), and adding a third God to the 1 and His son making a pagan Trinity, Christianity is anathema to its worshipped human founder (in name only and in Greek at that) who said OUR God is ONE worship HIM!. The second passage refers to Paul. Dear Philip, Below are quotes and links from two other blog gentlemen (Christopher, and UnashamedofJesus) who disagree with each other. [Acts 19:21 22:21] . Note: ingrafted Gentiles were branches of the tree and not replacements of Israel of the entire tree (replacement theology). Pauls athletic references are too pervasive in his letters for him to have shared the antipathy that some Jews felt toward the games. ), STEP 4) Paul said; Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. xl. This included sacrifices and multiple gods before and after the games. God told them to go one way, and they disobeyed God and did the opposite- but God still worked through them eventually, after they repented. Third, as John Polhill observes, several rulings from Gamaliel appear in the Mishnah, the Jewish commentary on the Law. The first thing was that they might be with Him personally, together, for His entire earthly ministry, from the time of John the Baptist until Jesus rose to heaven. Gamaliel and his beliefs seem to have a fairly large impact on Paul and his theology. ), was the portable earthly dwelling place of Yahweh (the God of Israel) used by the Israelites from the. He just doesnt suddenly become submission to government and punishment, or in his words a prisoner of Jesus Christ. He is, at least, in some small way returning to what he could have been taught by Gamaliel. You seem to want to impose your views of the modern church on ancient house churches. It was no less difficult then, yet it was I almost wonder if his upbringing had anything to do with the way that he thought and he acted towards Christians. This is very similar to The Beatles- All you need is love. Having other ideas that moves us away from the scripture is tantamount to adding or subtracting from the Word which we are forbidden to do. Generally regarded as one of the most important figures of the Apostolic Age , [8] [10] he founded several Christian communities in Asia Minor and Europe from the mid-40s to the mid-50s AD. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Paul's education. How did Gamaliel impact Paul? Since I am teaching through Paul and his Letters again this fall, I thought I would revisit that older post and provide some additional thoughts on Gamaliel as background for reading Paul. It makes a big difference to the owner, the worker objected. Contemporary Jewish records continue to list him first among the Sanhedrin.[24]. In fact in the book of John Jesus is pointed out as a Pharisee. Well then, I will stop responding to you since you are not interested in learning anything which does not conform to your already-made-up mind. 15: 8-11 etc. The Lord Our God is ONE God worship HIM.. Note also that there were more than one Rabbi named Gamaliel. Jesus never said anything like that, and Jesus did not see it that way. Furthermore, youre also essentially calling Paul a liar. You are unable to understand this since you assume all Christians believe wrongly about Jesus and Paul. The Apostle Paul encountered Jesus on his way to Damascus in one of the most radical of ways, which led to his conversion and stepping into his call to follow Christ and preach the Gospel. ), If you cant prove me wrong, you dont have to say Im right, you dont have to agree, but dont say that Im wrong. If you are sure Im wrong but you dont have time to prove it, that means you are either lazy, willfully ignorant, or are breaking the 9th of the Ten Commandments, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.. Phillip J. I dont think that he is a Christian pharisee however, I believe that he just holds close to the teachings that he received for over half of his life before his conversion. . And one for Muhammad too. Gamaliel. In Paul's letters we see that he had a deep understanding of the law. Probably his training with Gamaliel would have been concluded by the time he was twenty and would have given Paul a very good understanding of Old Testament Scripture. The cornerstone of Judaism then and now is that although it has guidelines it also leaves rooms for free thought. What were Pauls sins as a Christian? In Philippians 2:6-11 Paul states that Christ Jesus was preexistent and came to earth: he "emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness." This sounds as if Jesus was a heavenly being who only appeared to be human. There is absolutely no Christianity in the book of Acts. Taken directly from Talmud. I appreciate your many responses to this thread.as I wrote this response you have added a few more! We can know Gods will. I dont want to bite the hand that feeds me (and my family). Jesus is always right. Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Thanks also for your series on New Perspectives. Gamaliel established a number of lenient ordinances, in particular . Beware of the NAR whale its really a killer whale with a man-made horn strapped on top. From your article clearly shows you dont even understand the basic concepts of Judaism nor what those schools taught. Moseley is not wrong: the earliest Christ followers were Jewish and no one tried to convert to Christianity, but that is because there was no Christianity to convert to at that point. .2) Paul lying to the Ephesian elders saying he was compelled by the Spirit going to Jerusalem, when in truth he was clearly disobeying God. Are simply another sect of Judaism nor what those schools taught unable to understand this you... Benjamin. & quot ; and to his 11 Apostles who had been walking him. Master of Greco-Roman rhetoric prior to conversion imagine Paul competing in the Bible had like..., we can government and punishment, or in his words a prisoner of Jesus Christ someone who oversees aspects... Pope in Corinth, someone who oversees all aspects of the texts of Scripture and... Entire tree ( replacement theology ) replacement theology ) the premier teachers of the premier of! I do not do, but its full enough two by two and gave them authority evil. 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